Most of you probably know Wil Wheaton as Wesley Crusher on Star Trek: The Next Generation or maybe even as Gordie in Stand By Me. The former child actor has grown up and despite running into stormy seas and unfriendly ports as an actor in the last few years, he has managed to plot out on a different course for himself and set out for new adventures on the high seas of the World Wide Web. Back in June I had the opportunity to sit down with Wil and talk about being a writer, web celeb, actor, and Star Trek alum. This is Part II of III of that interview.

(The following interview was conducted over two evenings at the Tulsa Trek Expo on June 27^th and 28^th, 2003. For Part II, Wil, his wife Anne, and I were present at the table. To Read Part I check out our last issue online by going to: http://undercurrent.ou.edu/issues/v7/1/features/interview.htm.) 

Part II: The Wrath of Trek

Eric Webb: I’ve got to ask... because you talked a lot on WWDN about getting really shafted by the people behind Star Trek, and all of the problems with Rick Berman, and not getting included in TNG cast events, etc. All of these shitty things were happening, like not getting invited to the premiere of Nemesis.

Wil Wheaton: That was really fucked up. Because Rick told me, “I’ll make sure you get to come.”

EW:  The question I have to ask, and this may seem stupid. I know that you don’t have tight connections with all of the people you did the show with, but you shared stories on the site, where it sounded as if they wanted to leave the door open for you. Why didn’t you ever use that? If Brent (Spiner) says, “You’ve got my number, right?” Why don’t you call him and say, “I wasn’t invited to the fucking premiere! Can you believe this?”

WW:  I wouldn’t want to put them in a position where they would have to go and say, “Why didn’t you ask him?” That’s why. When LeVar said, “Do you want to be in the movie?” I said, “Yeah, but that’s a waste of time. Don’t do that.”

EW:  I don’t mean to pry. I was just curious.

WW:  It’s a good question. I wouldn’t feel comfortable putting them in that position.

EW:  Because it seems like they wouldn’t want you to be excluded.

WW:  Yeah, but what are they going to do? Honestly? Are they going to be like, “We’re not going unless Wheaton’s there!” There is a point that I reached, where I just feel like an asshole. Its like, “I’ve told you guys how much this means to me and I’ve said I’m sorry a million fucking times in a million fucking ways.”

EW:  For leaving the show?

WW:  I left the show and I didn’t leave it in the best way, but I was 18 fucking years old. Give me a break. I’m just not going to go there anymore and say, “Can I please suck your dick again?” I said I’m sorry and if they want to slam that door and feel like they’ve made a point, then ok, I’m a writer now.

EW:  I’m glad that’s the case: that you have that attitude. What about Star Trek as a franchise in general? This is a Friday and it’s really hard to tell what the turnout’s going to be tomorrow. Especially with people like Shatner and Nimoy here.

WW:  It’ll be huge tomorrow. There’ll be 10,000 people here tomorrow.

EW:  Really? You think so?

WW:  I’ve been doing these things since I was 14.

EW:  The Star Trek franchise isn’t in the best of shape… Nemesis didn’t do so well.

WW:  No.

EW:  Apparently it barely made its money back after video.

WW:  Yeah.

EW:  That doesn’t bode well. People are losing interest, something’s happening.

WW:  You want to know what I think?

EW:  Sure, that’s what I’m building up to here. What’s wrong with the franchise? What do you think can be done to save it?

WW:  Ok, speaking as a fan. As a fan of Science-Fiction and a fan of Star Trek. And Star Trek really isn’t Science-Fiction any more. It’s more Science-Fantasy. When Star Trek was really good: when Michael Piller was writing for Star Trek, when Gene was writing for Star Trek, Star Trek was great. When Tracy Tormé wrote episodes for Star Trek. Before Brannon Braga lost his mind, when he was writing. Ron Moore, George Fontana; when those guys wrote. They wrote stories about people. They were about people. They were about the human condition. It took place on a spaceship. It took place in the future. It took place with neat technology, with fun weapons and exciting special effects, but at its heart it was about people. The Enterprise was a character. The Captain loved his starship. The stories… they were humanistic stories. They have fallen very, very, very far away from that. They’ve lost that. The original Nemesis script is all about people. It was about how Picard reacts to Shinzon. It was about how Data reacts to B4. It was about how they all react to each other. The script that I read, John Logan’s script, was fantastic. It was about people.

EW:  What happened then?

WW:  Well, I think that Paramount did not hire the right person to direct a Star Trek picture. I mean Stuart (Baird) is a brilliant editor, a phenomenally talented editor. But when the director of the fucking movie is proudly, and sometimes vehemently proclaiming, “I don’t care what you did on Star Trek! I don’t care about Star Trek. This is what I want to do.” You can’t do that. There’s 35 years of history here pal, and it’s bigger than you. It’s bigger than all of us. It’s important to respect that. You can come in and have an interesting take on things.

                It like having someone other than George Lucas write Empire Strikes Back. You can come in and have your view of those things. But you can’t just come in and say, “Oh yeah…Warp12? Sure!” You can’t do that. “These two characters that have always hated each other. Now they’re friends.” No, no, no, no, no! Stop! Or suddenly its all about shooting people and girls with big tits. That is not what it is about. I think that there is so much media for people to choose from nowadays.20 years ago, before people had cable TV, when people had only three channels to choose from they had to fight really hard to put really good stuff and challenging stuff on TV to get people in. Nowadays people have so much choice, the media people have realized that they pretty much have one chance to get the 14-22 year old boys to come and watch their movies so that's where they target them. That's why movies are so stupid. Because they are targeted to these people that have the attention span of a gnat and the intellect of a gnat and that's what they focus on.

EW:  Now how does Star Trek stand out from that? They have kept a television series on the air since ’87 and they've had movies come out consistently every few years since the early eighties. But their is tons of Science-Fiction out there as well, how has Star Trek managed to contend with that competition?

WW:  Well, obviously Star Trek can't compete with Babylon 5, it couldn't even compete with Firefly, which never had a chance to find itself. The first episode of Enterprise was so cool. Linda Park is walking near the engine and she is like "I don't know about this." You know they're in real danger and they're really exploring things, and now they’re so fucking mundane. You know it's just safe and it's like “So what? The Vulcan's hot…” They've just forgotten that it is about exploration and it is about the human condition. What made Star Trek so powerful in the sixties is that Gene made statements using Science-Fiction. That's the real power of Science-Fiction. “You can't ever talk about race relations,” but you can talk about the Romulan/Klingon War and you 're saying the same thing.

EW:  So much of TOS was about allegory and symbolism in terms of the story lines and it seems like once TNG started there were changes. There were still a lot of very issue-oriented scripts…

WW:  And we had some real dogs too. Like having Wesley say, "Why would anyone ever use drugs? Drugs are bad." Jesus Christ! There were some horrible stories. The message hammer came through and just beat everyone over the head with it throughout the episode.

(Laughter.)

EW:  It seems that Star Trek has always been dependent on technological gimmicks to generate plot of to create an arena for some of those stories to take place in. More recent incarnations seem to fall back on tech all the time. How many transporter accidents can you have? How many technologically inspired plot devices...

WW:  Why does anyone ever go into the holodeck? You couldn't pay me to go into the holodeck. Even if there are like 15,000 Jenna Jamesons in there and they’re all waiting for me. “Fuck you I'm not going in there. Every time I go in there someone dies.” I think that what happens is that it becomes like a crutch, you know? They start writing tech stuff… We would get scripts that were just like line – line – tech – line – line – tech – line – line – tech, and it would say t-e-c-h for someone to fill in and it never meant anything. I wrote a Plus 5 post to Slashdot about that, where I basically recreated what we would have seen, and it's hysterical. It's all tech, tech, tech, tech, and it means nothing. I think you will see that Star Trek begins to go downhill around the time that Michael Piller left. That's when it really started to lose itself.

EW:  When did he leave exactly? Was it at the end of DS9 or did he leave before that.

WW:  He left well before that. I never liked DS9. I could never get into it. But, I understand that the last season is incredible. I just couldn't get into it, and I hated Voyager.... I feel so badly about that because I have friends that are on Voyager. I just didn't like it. But that's OK, there are people that loved TOS that can't stand TNG and there are people who love DS9 and hate TNG, and that's OK. There is plenty of Star Trek to go around.

EW:  I don't know that Enterprise is answering the need the fans have.

WW:  No, it's clearly not. I hear from people that work in ancillary Star Trek worlds: dealers and convention promoters, and nobody wants to see Enterprise stuff and nobody wants it out there. They're not feeling that need.

EW:  Well what's the next step then? I've read that Patrick Stewart doesn't want to do another movie now after the poor performance of Nemesis. Are we really looking at the death of a franchise that's been around for 30 years? It's not just a franchise. There's a legacy. It's not just about the money-making machine of Paramount’s Star Trek. It's about those characters and stories and fans that still show up to these things

WW:  I don't know if it's really the end. You know, back when I was working on TNG some of the greatest Science-Fiction writers in history; Hugo and Nebula award-winning Science-Fiction authors wanted to write for us and we had some of the greatest writers ever and a lot of them were run off, because the studio is stupid.

                One of the reason's all of Josh Whedon’s shows are so good is that he is smart enough to know what all of his characters are going to do and to respect the audience that watches the show and he knows when to it's time to walk away. He knows when it's is as good as it is going to get; when it's time to stop. He's also not afraid to say to somebody, “That's a really good idea that I didn't have, let's use that.” That doesn't exist in the Star Trek franchise anymore. You have to be able to do that. I'm a writer. I write all kinds of stuff and I'm always willing and I welcome it. I have a group a people who I trust to say to them, "Hey, let me know what sucks.” I do it all the time. I co-write with people at the Acme Comedy Theater all the time because I'm not married to any of my stuff. I think the mark of somebody who is really good and really creative is the willingness to say “Let's not use my dumb idea, let's use your good idea instead.” You know?

EW:  While I was waiting in line to get in today, I heard you say something about just how poorly written the Wesley character was; problems with the television writers not being able to write a believable teenage character. You were also talking about inconsistencies like having your character in Nemesis in a Star Fleet uniform. Not to mention I could not find a full version of that scene that included Wesley in any of the Nemesis scripts I found online. What happened in that scene?

WW:  The scene you mentioned is basically: 

Picard says to Wesley “It’s really good to see you back in a Starfleet uniform.” And Wesley says “Thank you sir.”

                And Picard says, “Are you looking forward to serving on whatever Riker’s ship is called...” 

EW:  The Titan

WW:  …yeah the Titan.  

And Wesley says something like “Oh man, you know it's going to be so cool we have this new tech, tech, tech, tech, tech...”

                And then Wesley sees some hot girl and he's like “I gotta go.” and takes off.  

                It was a great scene. But it did not add anything to the story, so it had to go. I don't know why it is not on the DVD. I could take that personally, I choose not to. I know a lot of the fans are pissed about it. It seems that they just don't get it, that the people in charge just don’t get it anymore. They don't respect the audience. They don't appreciate the audience. There was always a great deal of gratitude when we were doing our thing. There was an understanding that without fandom there would be no TNG and I think that at one time or another we all forget that. It's just that some of us remember and some of us don't. What was your original question I got so far off the… Oh the thing with the uniform: So, I asked Logan, “Is it like ‘Wesley is a ball of light and he's not anymore or like Wesley is at the Academy and he's not anymore?’” and he says “I can't do that in an eighth of a page. That's like a two page scene.” So he said that I had to basically “do something that would let the audience decide.”

                I said it today. I think there is a very interesting story to be told. So let's imagine that Wesley goes off with the Traveler and now he transcends space and time. He can now move about at will. He has effectively become like a neutrino. Nothing can stop him, right? So, he's obviously never in any danger. He could have transcended space and time and could have experienced several births and deaths in several universes and if you subscribe to Hawking’s bubble universe theory, could have even moved through several parallel universes and gone into hyperspace and that sort of thing. There’s a very interesting story to be told. Why did Wesley choose to stop doing that? What happened? What did he experience? What changed him? Why did he stop doing that? Did he see everything there is to see? Then why did he come and revert to human form?

EW:  Perhaps there’s something about starting out as a human and then going to far.

WW:  Yeah, there’s a great story to be told there. I don’t that I’m the person to tell that story. You know? I certainly know that character better than any one else. But it’s a very interesting story.

EW:  If you had the opportunity to put yourself back in the middle of all that, and Patrick agreed to do another movie and there was an honest and sincere attempt to make a really good Star Trek movie, and you could have Wesley back and have a rational justification for him being there, not like Worf, who just always happens to make it back to the Enterprise for the next movie. Worf’s on the Enterprise, Worf’s on DS9, Worf’s an Ambassador, Worf’s back!

WW:  Exactly… And now… WORF! Ratings are slipping. Bring in Worf!

(Laughing)

EW:  How would you put that character of Wesley, back on the Enterprise? Now that there’s this hole there now that Riker’s gone and they’ve done this fucked up thing with Data, leaving us with… B4… bleh! Which I though was just such cheap drama. “Yeah we’re going to kill him, but we’re going to have a way for him to come back just sitting there the whole fucking time.” But where would you have that character (Wesley) if you had a choice?

WW:  You know, I really liked the way that Wesley behaved in First Duty, when he was like Cadet Wesley Crusher and Picard was like, “You can’t do this!” and Wesley was like, “Fuck you, I’ll do what I want because I’m not a little kid anymore.” I thought that Wesley was dark and kinda troubled and that he was wrestling with a lot of things, instead of him being the Gee-Whiz Wunderkind. I liked him like that. He knew he was responsible for his friend being killed. He knew that. He didn’t need a big lecture from the Captain, who is basically his father. He didn’t need that. And then he’s torn between taking care of his friends and… but that’s what they teach you in the fucking military. Your duty’s to your unit. Everybody knows that. That’s why they cover shit up all the time. He’s a smart enough guy to know there is a duty to Starfleet. But he was conflicted. That was awesome. It was great. It was well written. It was extremely intelligent. The way Wesley took charge to save Picard’s life in Final Mission. Those moments like when Wesley hangs out with Picard in the back of the shuttle in Samaritan Snare. When we see him being more than a plot device.

EW:  Wesley saves the ship again.

WW:  The thing is that Wesley really didn’t save the ship all the time, but Wesley was over-relied upon by the writers to get them out of trouble. They pulled that a lot. When they weren’t doing that, it was great and I’d love to see him... You know Geordi was a great character until they made him not blind. I didn’t like it that they made him not blind. Data was a great character until they made him have emotions. Okay, we’re going to have Capt. Kirk, but he’s not going to fight anybody anymore. You know what I mean?

(Laughing)

WW:  It’s like we have this character and she’s a stripper, but she doesn’t take her clothes off anymore. BUT THAT’S WHAT SHE DOES! You know? That bothers me. I’m like, “stop that!” Let the characters evolve, but let them evolve logically. Let them evolve within the boundaries that we’ve created for them. If they were to recreate Wesley, and make him a useful part of the team, and show the way that he deals with growing up on the Enterprise, and not being that little kid anymore, I would love that. He’s an interesting character. I’ve lived more life now since then and I bring more to the table as an actor. I bring more experiences. And if a good writer wanted to take advantage of that, and tell an interesting story, I’d do it in a second. I love those people. I love those actors.

                I worked on Nemesis two days. On the second day, I was sitting in the make-up trailer. I was getting my make-up taken off. I was sitting between Jonathon and LeVar.

                Jonathon says, “Doing this again tomorrow?”

                And I said, “No man, this is it.”

                And LeVar says, “What!? That’s it?”

                I said, “Yeah, I’m just here two days.”

And Jonathon says, “It feels like you should be here more.”  

                And it did. And I write about that in my book. I feel like I wasted a lot of time. You know? And Berman hasn’t always treated me real well, and the fans haven’t always treated me really well. But that’s not what it’s about.

EW:  It seems at least that your relationship with the fans seems to be changing. I think you’ve worked your ass off and you’ve won them. And I think that’s something to be really proud of.

WW:  Thanks.

EW:  Let me ask you, is Rick Berman still in charge of the franchise? Is he just there on top of his mountain, un-topple-able?

WW:  I think he’s untouchable.

EW:  That’s awful.

WW:  He’s got all the control and all that stuff. You know, I think in his own way, Rick really does care. But I don’t think anyone ever tells him, “No.”

EW:  It’s kind of like the problem with George Lucas.

WW:  Actually, I think George Lucas is insane. George Lucas is Howard Hughes insane. I really do. I really think that he is out of his mind. Greedo shoots first? You Fucker!

EW:  What is up with that? Let’s completely alter a situation to make a character more palatable... to who? I just can’t imagine Rick McCaullum ever telling him, “George, is that a bad idea?”

WW:  Yeah.

EW:  What is the one thing that you would want people to know about you (Wil) that is not Wesley Crusher?

WW:  I had this realization: when I finally triumphed over Wesley, when I finally broke free from Wesley. I had this epiphany. I was signing an action figure, it’s in the book, and I looked down and I saw my words obscure his face. And I realized that I can exist without Wesley Crusher, but Wesley Crusher cannot exist without me. That’s what I want people to know. 

(To Be Concluded in Part III: The Follow-Up)