[JOE HARROZ] Hi, I’m Joe Harroz. President of the University of Oklahoma. I want to welcome you to our Conversations with the President. This platform gives me the chance to talk to some of the great people who make OU so special. Make sure that you’re subscribed to Conversations with the President, and you’ll be the first to know when new episodes are released. Let’s get started.
Alight, first thing first. Our last show, quick quiz on that, what were the key takeaways?
I’ve given you enough time to think about it. The first one, this fall, just a few weeks ago, we welcomed a record class of more than 4,700 incoming students to the University of Oklahoma. Record-setting in every way, including having 25 percent of the class being the first member of their families to go to college. We had a couple of important guests – Dr. David Surratt, who is Vice President of Student Affairs and Dean of Students, and from the College of Atmospheric and Geographic Sciences, research scientist Matthew Flournoy. I hope you enjoyed that show. Today’s show is going to be equally exciting and leverage off of those guests.
So for today’s show, we are celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of Title IX. Now what is Title IX? Title IX was a law passed in 1972. And why was it passed? It was passed because, prior to the passage of Title IX, universities could deny admission to women because of their gender. Doing things like requiring higher test scores for women than men. And universities were not expected to offer scholarships or clubs to women. Universities were not required to offer athletic teams or have fair admission practises for woemn. All of that, prior to this law being signed fifty years ago in 1972.
So what Title IX did and does, is that it encompasses all academic and extracurricular programs including athletics across the country that take any federal funding. It protects students, faculty and staff from sexual harassment and assault, discrimination and helps fund scholarships and provides athletic teams for both men and women. In every sense, Title IX changed the lives of women academically and athletically.
Its importance to sport is monumental. And when we talk about those key things to our university, what makes OU so special, what are our top goals? Among those top five goals is to be a place of belonging for all, and that certainly includes men and women. Title IX’s importance to institutions like the University of Oklahoma cannot be overstated.
Just after the passage of Title IX, OU like so many other universities across the country, created a women’s athletic program, starting with one sport. Today, there are equal participants in women’s sports and men’s sports. It is critical and essential of our strategic plan, to make OU a place of belonging for the entire OU family past, present and future. Title IX helps OU maintain its pursuit of excellence.
Now, we know at the University of Oklahoma, women’s athletics have been remarkable. We’ve enjoyed landmark and exciting success in basketball over the years. I was just talking to Coach Sherri Coale a couple of days ago, thinking about the impact she had. Then I saw on the sidelines of our last football game, which of course we won, our new coach Jenny Baranczyk, who’s doing great things with the program. Also out there was OU women’s gymnastics coach, who's become synonymous with championships, a good friend of this podcast and our university, K.J. Kindler.
There are countless other female athletes have had success at OU and found a home at OU, through volleyball, golf, tennis and track & field across the entire spectrum of athletics. It has changed the lives of those student athletes and changed the lives and the outcomes and the opportunities for all women.
Now at Oklahoma there’s one program that’s synonymous with success. And that is OU softball. Women’s softball at OU has become the dominant force in the sport. If you look at the last several years, not only have we won the last two national championships, but all told, we’ve won six national championships in women’s softball since the year 2000. OU has helped transcend the sport into new growth and exposure. A good example of this: OU’s semifinal game against the University of Texas, which of course we won, was broadcast on ABC for the first time a women's softball game has been televised nationally on a broadcaster. This is what Title IX promised. Equality of opportunity, equality of access and an opportunity for all women regardless of gender.
Now with that backdrop, I want to welcome our guest. Our guest Coach Patty Gasso.
Alright and here we are at the fiftieth anniversary of Title IX. As we sit here at the fiftieth anniversary of Title IX, there is no sport in Oklahoma, and I would say not just at the University of Oklahoma, but nationwide, that epitomizes the dream and the hope of TItle IX and the opportunity it brings. So we’re thrilled to have the only person that should be the guest for a show over this anniversary, and it’s Coach Patty Gasso. Coach, thanks for joining us.
[PATTY GASSO] Thank you for having me.
[HARROZ] Absolutely. Everyone in America knows who you are, but if there’s one or two people who do not know, it’s summarized as the headline, ‘She’s the GOAT.’ She’s the greatest of all time.
A little background is useful especially you started off your head coaching career at Long Beach City College and you came to the University of Oklahoma as the head women’s softball coach in ‘95. And you’ve been in that role now 28 seasons.
[GASSO] Starting 29 now.
[HARROZ] Isn’t that incredible?
[GASSO] Unreal.
[HARROZ] I mean when you look at it, it just doesn’t seem real. I came to OU a few months before you did, and the years go by pretty quickly.
[GASSO] It does but when you’re having fun, the time flies.
[HARROZ] It does
[GASSO] And we stay younger, and younger and younger.
[HARROZ] I would say we both look.
[GASSO] It’s amazing, we’ve done very well.
[HARROZ] It’s hard to believe we’ve been here two years, let alone 28.
[GASSO] Agree.
[HARROZ] That’s why we’re not using high-depth lenses for me. No, we’re not. We’re using some early-’80’s technology. Makes me look more youthful.
The numbers are incredible, so when you came here in ‘95, you had your first national championship in the year 2000. In case you didn’t know. And now you’ve had back-to-back national championships making it a total of six national championships so far as your time as head coach. And to make sure that we can punctuate this and for those that are watching, and not just listening, we had Patrick Dunn show up here with a little surprise for all of us. Patrick, could you bring in evidence of the back-to-back national championships?
By the way this looks light, but it’s super heavy. Thank you, that’s some great work. Patrick just flexed, which I think he’ll regret eventually.
This is incredible. Does this ever get old?
[GASSO] No, we just get hungrier each year. So, when you get it, it’s kind of like a weird infatuation that you just want to feel it again and again and again.
[HARROZ] It’s remarkable. So as we sit here and I want to go into the specifics of where OU softball is today and where it’s going, but I think sort of a macro view as we think about fifty years of Title IX, how do you, in the life that you’ve lived with Title IX and how it’s grown over the years, and its impact, what is your impression of the state of Title IX and the impact it has had over your career?
[GASSO] That’s a big question for many of us who have been doing this for a long time. The stories I can tell you are quite remarkable as to our starting my career at OU at Reeves Park, which is a city park, that is notorious for late-night slow pitch. We would go over and practice and we would pick up dirty diapers and beer bottles and we would go in early and clean it all up then we would practice, but we had to get off at five because they had to get the fields ready for slow pitch. So that was the life I was living in my first three years here before we built a new stadium.
We didn’t have a locker room. We traveled by vans quite a bit. Meal money was short but it’s not like we were struggling, and others were flourishing, we were all living in the same way. There were four people in a room at times. Our budget wasn’t something freely spend. So fast food eating and all of those things. But I never thought of it as wow this is so unfair, I thought of it like wow I’m the coach of the University of Oklahoma. So as long as that is the case we’re going to deal with what we’ve gotta deal with.
There were some strong women that came before me that fought for facilities and opportunities with more money towards bringing in fans. One of my heroes is Pat Summit and I’ve always wanted to kind of, although she didn’t hand me the torch, I’ve never met here, but I always admired her style and what here fight for Title IX, her salary, her facilities, her crowds, her numbers were wow. She was out-selling men’s basketball which was a wow-factor for all women, not just basketball. So, what she did affected softball, soccer, and all sports. I just wanted to, I’m not made to do, I’m not made like she is, but I knew that I needed to do something. So, I’ve been a little more outspoken lately, especially.
But going in and fighting for things and Joe and Joe (Castiglione) have been listening. It’s been really, I think we’ve been a trendsetter in terms of softball for fighting for what’s right. What’s happened since then is crowds have quadrupled or more. We can’t let people into our stadium because it’s sold out ten minutes after tickets are on sale. Everything is completely changed in a wonderful way. A lot of times, I’m saying to myself, I can’t even believe I’m witnessing this from the crowds to the budgets, to the stadiums that are happening, it’s been incredible, but there have been some pioneers and women who are bold and outspoken and who have taken charge of all of this. I’ve been the benefactor of all that and I will be eventually handing over my torch and I hope someone will take it from me, because it’s a hard place to be.
[HARROZ] I think it’s interesting, I think all of us that are in positions where we speak to the leadership of tomorrow realize that for every benefit there is a burden. For every opportunity, there is an obligation. I think you’ve talked a lot about how you’ve benefited, how you’ve been the recipient of opportunity. We’ve had some conversations about this before. Do you feel a burden? Do you feel like it’s up to you to do something to be worthy of the opportunity you've been given to advance the opportunities for the sport, and for women as a whole in your position?
[GASSO] Yeah. I feel a burden because I want to win. Coaches are developed that way, and I want to win. I want the answer to be ‘yes,’ and I will fight until I get a ‘yes’ and if I get a ‘no’ I feel defeated, but I feel like we won because there’s been advancement. I feel prideful that, and kind of proud of myself in a weird way that I am a little more outspoken. I’m saying things and doing things that I never thought in my lifetime that I would. But I know that I want to leave softball better than what I came into. That is my goal and my own expectation to help do that. So, the game has changed in wonderful ways with instant replay. We were one of the last sports to get instant replay. We have over 40-plus cameras and we don’t have instant replay? Some of these are just, if someone will say something, it’s an easy fix. But nobody really likes to talk out loud.
[HARROZ] Yeah, and we saw that in high definition this past March with the facilities that were provided in and around the women’s basketball tournament, the NCAA championships. You just look at it, and on its face, you think ‘this can’t be right.’ And yet, it’s a legacy and something that should have been taken care of by Title IX. So, there’s still strides, as you’re saying, that need to be made. Here you are at this remarkable place in your career. You are the dominant figure in your sport. You’ve already made huge advances, you’ve talked about a couple, but to me, the airing on ABC of the semifinal game against Texas, the first of its kind for softball, is the next step. That is the next level, in not just women’s softball, but women’s athletics across the board. I know you have a lot more to go in your career, but do you ever think about what you want to be known for whenever your run is over.
[GASSO] It’s really not successes, but more that I was, I guess honest, connectable, respected. It’s not about the rings. I don’t wear our rings, one, because they make them too big. I couldn’t imagine even putting them on my fingers, they’re in a box somewhere. I just want to be known as a coach who made a difference in her player’s lives. Really, our motto is taking girls and turning them into women. I think that is something that is really important in this day and age. The time of, there’s a lot of anxiety and pressure and I really try to take that away from our athletes and try to get them to understand that the world is in their hands. Just that confidence factor, a lot of athletes come in and they don’t have that. They don’t believe they don’t belong here, I’m not good enough. Just creating a culture in our program where everyone’s treated equally and loved equally and respected equally. That I'm fair, those are the things I care most about.
[HARROZ] Do you think you have a place in the evolution of women’s sports at the college level?
[GASSO] I don’t know. I don’t really think about that. I just do me. I’m not. If it is, great. Even when I’m done coaching, I think I will be fighting in some way or encouraging someone to fight.
[HARROZ] Isn’t it interesting? You talked about having to push yourself. I don’t know how you feel about it specifically, but it sounds like how I feel sometimes which is, I’m always teaching students, and I’m telling them to take risks and always grow. At times, you gotta push yourself to follow the advice that you’re dishing out. Do you feel the same way?
[GASSO] Absolutely. They’re watching me. They’re not admitting it, but they read or they see on social media things that I’m going through. So if I am preaching, I need to back it up. There are times when it really unsettles your life because you don’t know what is going to happen. And again, I am so driven to want to win that it keeps me up at night. How can I do this better? So if I'm preaching, I need to back it up, for sure. Those are the things that I need to stand up for for our players.
[HARROZ] That’s really the fun part of this job. You have to continue to grow. You can’t remain static.
So this next question, I had lunch today with our friend Bob Stoops. So I said, ‘Bob, I’m going to do a podcast with Patty, and not you, Bob.’ And he was obviously lauding you. So I said, ‘Give me a question for her.’ And it made me reflect that we had the softball team over for dinner recently and it was so much fun. The women are so talented across the board, and the question from Bob is, ‘What is the biggest difference in the athletes you’re recruiting today versus the athletes you were recruiting when you started at Long Beach and here at Oklahoma in ‘95?’
[GASSO] I bet he and I have close to the same answer. I think back then it was more a gritty, I don’t need a lot, I got to fight hard. I don’t need all of the necessities, just give me a glove. I don’t care what it looks like. There wasn’t demands for things. There wasn’t I need the best of this. They were just wanted to play the game, they loved the game. They just wanted to represent the university and play the game and have a great time doing it. I think we would all agree that social media has a lot to do with changes that we are dealing with. Back then, players didn’t care what people thought of them, because they didn’t have to read it very often. If someone was saying something, maybe it would be in the paper, but we weren’t even being covered in the paper back then. Promotions, promoting myself, promoting the way I look, the way I play. I’m ranked number two in the country, look at me everyone. It turns me off, but I know it’s part of their culture, and if I am like I can’t stand this, then I am stepping away from something I need to be paying attention to, because I can learn a lot through it. I think the gutty, gritty, fearless, confident is what I felt more from the younger group, well the group long ago. Now it’s more almost walking on eggshells sometimes, uncertainty of what is gonna happen. What are people going to say?
[HARROZ] That’s interesting, so emotionally they’re more under attack. What about physically? Have you seen the impact Title IX has on how physical the players are?
[GASSO] One hundred percent. I think that’s just through more knowledge and getting the right people who want to continue to learn whether it’s strength and conditioning, all of the analytics, all of the things we have now, we can go to levels that we couldn’t even touch before, so this day and age, the athletes are extremely strong, very well balanced, they have understanding of eating right, and sleeping patters and how to breathe properly, I mean everything that you might do to even live we have a reason why you should do it a certain way. So, there’s a lot of demands on them. And there are times when I would feel it too. You’re telling me how I need to breathe, when I need to eat, when I need to go to sleep. They’re very regimented now and I think at times it’s overwhelming and they can’t breathe. So we have to pay attention to the mental wellness side and give them the opportunity to make choices. We didn’t have that back in ‘95 or 2000, it was just hey let’s go.
[HARROZ] Isn’t it amazing though? I think it’s really inciteful. I expected the conversation to be that they’re more physically more dominant, they’ve been told now and reinforced that ‘You don’t throw like a girl, you play like an athlete.’ The mental and psychological aspect to me is really inciteful. How has, as we entered the age of name, image and likeness (NIL), transfer portal, compounding emotional stress?
[GASSO] I think so but I will say at the same time, I’m an advocate for NIL. All I have to think about is Jocelyn Alo. If Jocelyn Alo was a man, she would be the number one draft pick from Major League Baseball and make millions of dollars. So why would I mind if she’s making 20,000 dollars in NIL money, I support that. The problem is they have practice, classes, they have a lot going on and then they have responsibilities to companies, so how do you balance that? Do they have the right agent, is the agent feeding them with, ‘Hey do this, do this, figure out how to do this.’ They understand that I support them but they also understand not to bite the hand that feeds you which is softball. Softball is the reason you’re getting NIL, so make sure you put that first. So we have those conversations. I’m for it, I’m excited for these athletes. To say for me that an athlete, when they’re done playing at the University of Oklahoma, has enough money to put a down payment on a house, that’s like a million dollars to me. That’s something a woman would never be able to think about or say. So that’s really exciting.
The transfer portal, I think coaches get blamed a lot for the transfer portal. The transfer portal is for athletes to go into. So there are athletes in your program that say, ‘I’m not playing, I'm not starting, I’m going to the transfer portal,’ I say, ‘Good luck.’ If someone is a distraction in your program then you might lead them to the transfer portal because you know they’re not going to play anyway. So, I think it's good for players to give them opportunity to want to paly, but the day of “Rudy” is over. There are no more Rudies that say, ‘I’m gonna wait my turn, wait my turn.’ They don’t gave the patience for that. Then we go to the transfer portal, and we get the elite of the elite, and people say, ‘Oklahoma, you’re too good, you're bad for the sport.’ And I say, ‘Am I supposed to get average players? What are you asking me to do?’ It’s an interesting dynamic when you’re in a pretty elite place. The way people look at you and look at our sport and want it to be more fair, I’m like, my job is to win. My job is to have the best team I can. I don’t understand the thinking of it. I do think the transfer portal, as much as I love people honoring their commitment and so forth, if they’re not happy, then it really can completely crash your program. So, I want players to be happy, and ultimately, that’s what I want.
[HARROZ] Well it’s remarkable. So many coaches that have been around for a while. Regardless of sport are saying with the uncertainty that’s out there and all of the change they just have to get out, they can’t cope with it. They say it behind the scenes often. I just think it’s amazing that you are, you’ve not only adapted to it, you’ve continued to thrive in it. Back-to-back, six from the year 2000 during the most amazing change in intercollegiate athletics. You talk about the platform of social media and how it can create these pressures and these stresses and sort of the individuality. I think it’s special, and I’m just speculating, proven time and time again, it’s not just about aggregating the best athletes, it’s about teaching them something bigger. In a really important way, you’re teaching them that it’s not just about them. Not to just promote themselves, that there’s something bigger. Is that a part of the successes?
[GASSO] One hundred percent. It’s not really coming from me. I think they understand that I am very myself and they know everything about my family and they know about how faith based I am in my family. That has kind of welcomed them to express their faiths as well. What’s really cool about this team and I was thinking about it today is how they exclaim that there’s no need to be nervous because the finish is already written. So, if it’s already written, what are we nervous about? We just go out and we just play. Whether we win or lose, it’s already written. They keep saying that, over and over. With that mentality, they just play free. That is the secret sauce. There’s nothing secret about it, that’s just who they are. It’s not me standing up there and preaching, it’s really about the team. They run their own Bible studies and they run their chapels and I’ll sit in on them and assist them if needed by bringing in speakers and so forth. Not every athlete is all in on that which is completely fine, we are open to all. Whatever faith base you have, it will be offered to you here at the University of Oklahoma. It’s been fun to watch, but it’s very player driven.
[HARROZ] It’s exciting. Whenever you realize you’re a part of something bigger than yourself, it’s stunning what the results are. It’s simply different. Just spending time with the athletes over at the house for dinner the other night, you just see the confidence and the collective enthusiasm and purpose. I think that’s why we got into higher education. Collegiate sports. Some of the conversations I loved hearing from the student athletes is the new softball league that is in its first season. Jocelyn Alo who is the Babe Ruth of women’s softball. It’s great to see her a part of that. I really do think that, I know it’s not for you to say, although you could certainly say it, it has to be exciting for you to see the national recognition that we’ve seen very tangibly in ABC broadcasting our semifinal and now seeing the attention it has brought to softball. The impact that it’s having. I hope you’re enjoying that. I know it carries with it a burden, but we can all see the lives of my daughter who is 15 about to turn 16, first time when she was told by one of her brothers who shall remain nameless, that she threw like a girl, her immediate response was, ‘I’m a better athlete than you.’ It was with absolute confidence, and it doesn’t happen without Title IX and coaches like yourself. Having an impact that’s way broader than that. I know I kid you a lot and I promised I wouldn’t do this.
[GASSO] You are not doing this.
[HARROZ] I am. I was at the football game a few days ago and someone handed me a button from the stands. I’ll wear right now. It says, ‘Natty Patty, the GOAT.’ with a stuffed-animal goat, who, I don’t know gave it to you. This is the kind of dexterity that kept me out of division one sports.
[GASSO] Thank you for doing that, that just made my day. You just don’t know how happy I am that you just did that.
[HARROZ] I just hope you know, you’re a friend, you’re obviously a remarkable coach. But you’re someone that when I talk about why I’m a part of a university, my kids ask me why are you spending your time there. We talk about our purpose which is to change lives, you do it in a fundamental way at the individual level. We are so remarkably proud of who you are and I hope, I know you’re going to continue for seasons to come. I hope you enjoy a part of it and reflect on the difference you’re making. I hope we both keep growing and just know that you’re a role model for a lot of people, including me.
[GASSO] We have to keep laughing, too.
[HARROZ] We promised we would take one drink together. So we can appear to be relaxed. Here is to you, Coach Gasso, back-to-back, soon to be back-to-back-to-back.
[GASSO] Number three has never been done here.
[HARROZ] Here’s to you?
You were going to slurp it weren’t you? Totally inappropriate ending. That’s an intelligent ending.
[GASSO} You forced me into this!
[HARROZ] Thank you, Patty!
At the top of the show, I mentioned that Title IX is an integral part of the growth and success of the University of Oklahoma. Coach Gasso is critical, but if you look across the university, she is only one example of what makes that so true. Our campus is filled with innovative and successful women, from students, to faculty, staff and so many more. As this episode of Conversations with the President comes to an end, I want to thank everyone for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe and I look forward to our next conversation, thank you.
