PRES. HARROZ: Hi. I am Joe Harroz, President of the University of Oklahoma. I want to welcome you to our Conversations with the President. This platform gives me the chance to talk to some of the great people who make OU so special. Make sure you're subscribed to Conversations with the President, and you will be the first to know when new episodes are released. Let's get started. Welcome back to Conversations with the President. I know you are likely binge listening and binge watching to each of these shows, so I need not remind you, but for those who are not doing that, the last episode we had with Conversations with the President was with George Henderson, Dr. George Henderson. It was a feature for Black History Month. He is truly an icon of OU and an important historical figure for all of us and a dear, dear friend. If you have not watched it yet or listened to it yet, please do so with all of the options we have for platforms for this program.
Today's episode, incredibly excited about this. We are now talking about an area for that is new for many and familiar in lots of ways to others. That is online, online education, where it has come from at OU where it is today and where it is going. It is my honor to welcome as our guest Dr. Gregg Garn.
Here we are with Dr. Gregg Garn. Gregg, you have a phenomenal background but it includes at OU being Dean of College of Education for seven years at the same time period that I was Dean at the College of Law. The last really since COVID hit, the last two and a half to three years. You have taken over as the head of OU Online so thank you for joining us.
DR. GREGG GARN: Happy to be here. Excited to share some of the opportunities that we have had to really connect with a group of learners that in the past the university has not had the opportunity to really get connected to the University.
PRES. HARROZ: Before we get to the substance of this, and we will, we covered just sort of the high‑level your CV but I think your greatest accomplishment probably professionally was to be co-coach of the Hello Kitty rockstar soccer team.
DR. GREGG GARN: One of the legendary youth soccer teams around, in fact that group of girls now I think is in high school and I got to say at least 3, maybe even four looking at all‑star recognition. Joe, I know you and I had the pleasure of coaching our kiddos when they were younger and was really an amazing opportunity to connect.
PRES. HARROZ: It was. It was great. Part of being part of the OU family is you get to have these experiences. And so I’ve know you both professionally and personally and grateful to have you as a colleague and a friend. Let's talk about online education. Can you indicate what it is not and what it is.
DR. GREGG GARN: Yeah, so what it is not is simply having a Zoom of a professor doing a lecture. What is, is connecting an instructional designer, a videographer, people who are incredibly insightful in understanding how technology can connect with a deep learning that our faculty have to be able to get that out to students whether they are around the state, around the region, or around the world.
PRES. HARROZ: And so in the University strategic plan it is a key strategy of ours is to grow online on education. You might talk about where it started a couple of years ago under your leadership and where it is today.
DR. GREGG GARN: Yeah, so the thing that I am in incredibly excited about when we started OU Online, we had a couple hundred students across a variety of different programs that were emerging. We now have hit over 3000 students, we have coordinated best practices every time we open another program we are able to build in the learning that we have had prior to that. The opportunity to work across the health science campus, every college on the Norman campus has been incredibly fulfilling in a way where it allows us to really expand the traditional students that we’ve been able to work with.
PRES. HARROZ: It's fascinating. So when I was Dean of the College of Law, we started doing some online Masters of Legal Studies program. I taught in the classroom for 25 years before I taught my first online class. There is a member of the crew here today that saw just how poor of a job I did and she is laughing because she knows that it is true. I thought that being a good in classroom professor would translate directly to online and you have covered a couple of these things but you talk about instructional design, you talk about these key elements. Before you get into those details I would just say anecdotally, I thought it would be the same from a professor standpoint and in the way that the students consume the knowledge, and it simply wasn't. I really struggled in putting together my first class which was around healthcare law and regulation in a Master of Legal Studies and healthcare law and regulation. It was the intro class so presumably you think the easiest class to teach. I put in quality standards soon after starting it and the only person that I had to remove from their teaching assignment was me. I did not meet the quality standards. Their exacting and it is not just how you prepare for it but it is also the kind of feedback that you get. Could you cover how you built it, how it is different, and how we ensure that what we are providing is truly OU quality.
DR. GREGG GARN: Sure. First of all you are being incredibly humble I think it was under your leadership that the law school was able to expand those Masters of Legal Studies that really did allow some incredible opportunities to connect in the areas of indigenous studies in healthcare, international business. There is a variety of different areas that you were able to lead there. Again, humility aside --.
PRES. HARROZ: Just to be clear that was leading not teaching. We generally arrived there but through no fault of me in the actual classroom.
DR. GREGG GARN: Let’s just go with it. The point that I would make though is when you go through the development of an online course, you really do expand your teaching toolbelt so to speak. There's a number of faculty that are incredibly good in person and that does not always translate to online. There are some skills in terms of how you assess at a distance and how you think about setting up curriculum. I use a variety of different technologies to be able to get that knowledge across, assess it and ensure that those students are able to do it. You just don't have some of the same things that you have in the classroom and so what we really try to do at OU Online is to provide those services to the faculty that are participating. These are not separate faculty; these are the regular faculty that we have at the institution. It is not a separate degree. They are creating it. They are the core group that are teaching these classes and really the ability to work with them opens up larger conversations. In fact, what we found is once faculty are able to go through the preparation to teach online it oftentimes has this really positive, almost unintended positive impact, back on their in class teaching because they have opened up to a number of different ways to think about how do I deliver knowledge, how do I access knowledge, and make sure students are learning in a really powerful way.
PRES. HARROZ: I think you have covered it well. Let's talk about the kinds of courses that OU Online offers right now. They are predominantly in the Masters space, correct?
DR. GREGG GARN: Correct. We have started in professional Masters and the true essence of what we are trying to do is to meet the needs of the state and the region economically. That all begins with the market analysis and what we are looking for is really good outcomes for students ,that they are going to have job opportunities in these areas, and that it aligns with the growth that the governor and the legislator and some of the trends that we see in terms of different jobs. So that is where it all begins is making sure that we have the ability to create degrees that really respond to the needs of the local and regional economy.
From there one of the things that we are excited about is we oftentimes have an industry advisory board that works with the faculty to be able to identify not just the courses, but some of the outcomes that they really need to have. We have had a number of our programs where they have benefited immensely from that insight from folks that are in those jobs and can really articulate the types of learning that needs to happen. The last thing that we have tried to layer into these professional Masters programs are industry certificates. It is almost like a two‑for‑one. It is not just you are taking this class which then come together to get you this degree but along the way we are embedding a number of industry-based certificates that allow additional flexibility for folks who are in these programs.
PRES. HARROZ: So today in our Masters programs, these professional Masters as they are referred to, these aren't research based Masters that can then lead to a PhD. It really is in a particular industry how do you as someone who is already working in that industry most of the time or wanting to enter that industry, how do you upscale yourself? By doing it online they are able to do it on their schedule and receive the professional instruction that allows them to advance their careers. What are you seeing in terms of outcomes? Are we seeing that these professional masters are helping people get the next job or better salary?
DR. GREGG GARN: We absolutely are. We are seeing some great indicators and one of the things that we have really tried to do is to tailor the career services that we do. This is not somebody that is graduating with a bachelors where they need maybe that first resume or those kinds of things. One of the huge advantages that we have is the network of the OU family and so the ability to get a degree from this institution we have so many folks in the state and region that are incredibly receptive to additional graduates there. Being able to plug into that family tree, if you will, is a huge asset to being able to get a degree from this institution.
PRES. HARROZ: So you might give a couple of examples of the more popular professional masters online degrees that we have at OU Online.
DR. GREGG GARN: I would say one of them right now that is growing incredibly quickly is clinical mental health counseling. Huge needs and growth in the area around substance abuse and other areas and a program that prepares people to be able to help others is a degree that has grown pretty quickly over the past few semesters. Social work is another area increasingly we are seeing needs for families and in that space. So being able to grow professionals there. What I am really excited about is the growth that we will see over the next couple of years at the Health Sciences Center. This is a state where we really need to do a better job in terms of health outcomes and the ability of our health science colleges to grow in the area of nursing and public health and any other any number of other areas is an exciting opportunity for us to grow into.
PRES. HARROZ: Fantastic. I saw that on this most recent regent’s agenda there was discussion about -- in the regents past I guess, the last two regent’s meetings, a new suite of offerings that were outside of the professional masters online space. Can you talk about that.
DR. GREGG GARN: Yeah, we are here calling this adult degree completion. The idea is if you are 25 or older and have 60 credit hours. That could be from a number of different institutions, it could be packaged in associate’s degree. What we have built out are online pathways, again, that allow you to keep the job that you have but then upscale, if you will, so that you are able to get a degree at the University of Oklahoma. It is interesting, Joe, one of the things we have tried to do at OU Online is to be incredibly data focused and when I saw some data that shows the State of Oklahoma exports about 18,000 individuals that are getting their degrees out‑of‑state and importing about 2500 individuals that are coming from another ZIP Code into the state of Oklahoma –
PRES. HARROZ: On an annual basis.
DR. GREGG GARN: On an annual basis. I want to capture that and a lot of that is going to adult degree completion programs that exist outside the State of Oklahoma. I want to give them an option in‑state. Again, I think it’s just going to be a great opportunity for us and this is a population we really don't have lots of experience with. The opportunity to grow in a way that not only meets learner's needs but also gives us another group to connect into the OU family is pretty exciting opportunity.
PRES. HARROZ: You know, those are fascinating numbers. When we look at Oklahoma and Oklahoma is comparable to the rest of the country in this. Over the last 10 years, we know there has been this big decrease nationwide and the number of people going to colleges and universities, which is completely opposite of the reality that all the good jobs or there is a huge number or higher percentage of the best paying jobs that require a university degree or education beyond your bachelor’s degree. In Oklahoma just in the last 10 years there are now 65,000 fewer students in Oklahoma colleges and universities than there were 10 years ago. The numbers you talk about in terms of those that are leaving to go online out‑of‑state versus online in‑state to me are a big part of that and are compelling.
DR. GREGG GARN: Yeah, no you are right on and you have heard in the governors state of the state that sort of challenged to grow to 40,000 students by the end of the decade or in the next decade or so. We are ready to embrace that. I think there is this great opportunity to connect with individuals that maybe physically can’t be on our campus, but if we can have the opportunity to offer professional master’s degrees that allow you to upscale. If we can offer adult degree completion, if we can expand into Health Sciences Center and the able to offer better prepared professionals that can go in and help alleviate some of the outcomes. I think the sky is the limit. I think we are able to do this in a way that meets the OU standard. It is high quality, it is our regular faculty that are creating these programs, teaching in these programs and then we filter that in with extraordinary professionals. People who are leaders in these fields that become adjunct faculty to be able to partner with our -- with our regular faculty to deliver excellence.
PRES. HARROZ: There is a lot of hard work that goes into this. Watching you and the team is something special. A lot of folks can identify the need. A lot of folks see the desperate need for this and yet it is not being met. I think a lot of people are concerned that it will somehow cannibalize the traditional undergraduate experience. What is your perspective on that?
DR. GREGG GARN: Yeah, I think increasingly we need to be sensitive to the --what I would call the mode of learning that the student wants. The University of Oklahoma, traditionally, has been as good or better than anybody at delivering that in‑person education. We are never going to stop doing that, but what we need to be able to address is learners that want what we have, the degrees, the certificates, the opportunities to continue their learning in a variety of different modes. Online I think fits a gap that, in the past, we have sort of done here and there. We now are in a place where we can do that with the same level of excellence that we do for our in-person learners.
PRES. HARROZ: Yea, to me one of the things is we went through the strategic planning process, and we realized that there -- all of these students that either going out of state, online to do this or, more often than not, are not receiving the education at all because the traditional way of delivering it in person, on a physical campus simply won't work for them in their lives.
DR. GREGG GARN: Exactly.
PRES. HARROZ: They don't have the time to take away from their jobs and their families and it simply won't work. We are to geographically distance. It's exciting. So for our listeners, you started this off a few years ago. It was a couple of hundred students, now it is over 3000 students that are in this. We have expanded. Almost all of those are now professional master’s students, so after their four‑year degree with the last couple of regent’s meetings we are now moving -- OU Online is moving into degree completion, sort of the other end of this. And then there is also a big movement in both areas to focus on the Health Sciences Center.
DR. GREGG GARN: Correct.
PRES. HARROZ: And now we effectively have four primary campuses, right? We have the campus in Norman. We have the Health Sciences Center in Oklahoma City. We have the Schusterman Campus in Tulsa, and now OU Online. To me that is really exciting. It is a new campus, it is a virtual campus, but it is growing at a remarkable rate. That is exciting.
DR. GREGG GARN: It is. I would say that one of the things we have really tried to do is to think about how do we build community in a virtual campus? What we don't want to do is just to have people plug it in for the class and then feel dislocated like they are not deeply connected. One of the things that we are really excited about are a series of affinity groups that we have created that allow students across programs to connect on interest that might be outside of the individual program that they are on. We now have hundreds of students that have joined these affinity groups, and again find themselves deeply connected to the campus.
The other thing that we have tried to do is to really ensure that we get students to physically be on campus for graduation and I can’t tell you how exciting it is to have folks that are at a distance through most of their programs of studies. They come here for graduation, they see the beauty of the campus, they really become a part of the family if you will.
PRES. HARROZ: So this to me was shocking. When we started at the law school, and began with the Masters of Legal Studies online program. We just decided, at first, that we would add those students to the traditional law school graduation. I thought there might be 5 or 10 show up, and after the first year we had to create an entirely separate graduation because there were too many of them and their enthusiasm was off charts. The excitement, especially because a lot of these already had jobs, and they were upscaling to the next, but they came to graduation, and they were so excited. They brought their families with them, and I was surprised at how much connection and love there was. Just like any other student at a different campus.
DR. GREGG GARN: Yeah. That again, that is such an opportunity for those folks to truly become a part of the University. They are not just a satellite where they are not connected. We have seen the same thing even on a larger scale where we’ve got hundreds of students that are coming in for graduation. They are bringing their families. They are sort of connecting in ways that are incredibly powerful. The last thing that I will stay in terms of the connections is we have started a speaker series, and so we will make sure that we get this connected into the group, but we have these extraordinary opportunities to hear thought leaders in so many different areas and we have connected our online students into that. Whether it is this kind of conversation or a thought leader in a different area, our online students have an opportunity to be a part of the University of Oklahoma, not just taking a class at a distance, but truly a student at the University of Oklahoma.
PRES. HARROZ: Yeah, and I would love that hybridized component. During the time that I -- before I fired myself from my online class some of the students came in for graduation and they were like, it is so nice to meet you and the rest of the professors in person. That was truly exciting for them, and it was great to meet those students. And then one of the students looked at me and said and I'll be honest I thought you were a lot taller. There is a downside to online teaching but maybe I'll just stand on a box next time.
DR. GREGG GARN: There are any number of advantages and disadvantages both ways. I will say a lot of our classes, when we talk about online, there is an in-person component so there is this -- it depends on the kind of learning outcomes. If I am in a nursing program, as an example, I don't want to theoretically give a shot or do that at a distance. There may be a need to come in, have that supervised so that there is a skill or learning outcome that you can do. Whether that is a business program or an engineering program or any of the other 46 programs that we have, our faculty have really taken an amazing lead and being able to identify these are the kinds of things that are absolutely appropriate for online, but for those that aren’t, we will have an in‑person opportunity to learn that skills and knowledge.
PRES. HARROZ: That is really what separates Zoom from bad online from average online to highest quality online. There is such a huge gap in there, and I think for those that haven’t taken a class or have only seen in their minds eye or, in fact, bad online. When online is done the right way, it is a stunning delivery system and there is no question that you can tell the difference between those things that are average or poor and those that are exceptional. You might talk about sort of the quality standards that you have. How do you make sure that when we are delivering an OU degree online that it meets the exacting standards that we have for an OU degree in person?
DR. GREGG GARN: Yeah, it's a great question. So we have a group called ODL, the Office of Digital Learning, Adam Croom leads that effort, and it’s 17 extraordinary individuals who really come together to be able to make sure that we are meeting those standards. There is a set of national standards called OLC, the Online Learning Consortium standards, that we built into every course that we create. As those professionals are able to work with faculty who have that depth of knowledge, the faculty member does not have to be the expert on how I deliver, this we are able to connect those professionals making sure that they meet OLC standards across all of those courses.
PRES. HARROZ: Yea, it is stunning. To me seeing the impact that it has on students is amazing. Going back to the law school, the Indigenous People's Masters, it changed the lives of individuals and changed their communities in ways that really make you proud of what you are doing and the impact that you are having.
DR. GREGG GARN: Well, think about it. If only option was to physically come to the law school to get that there are so many of those students that just – that door would not be open.
PRES. HARROZ: Ever.
DR. GREGG GARN: So the idea that as a university, again so much credit to your leadership to be able to put the focus behind this that allows us to connect with students that 10, 20, 30 years ago we just would not have the opportunity to do that.
PRES. HARROZ: Without a doubt. It is a huge strategy for us. And it is important for us to expand this in the highest‑quality way in every way that we can. Tell us about the future, you have spent a lot of time thinking about what the horizon looks like as well as putting in new programs here. Tell us what you think the future of online education looks like and what do you then see the future of OU Online becoming?
DR. GREGG GARN: There are a couple of things that we are thinking about now that, in the very near future, I think we will need to grapple with as a university and one of them is that idea of students pick the modality. What I mean by that is right now we think about online, and I’m in an online program or I’m in an in-person program. I don't exactly know what the timeline is, but I think in the very near future, we as a university, are going to have to be able to allow the student to pick. In one semester it may be two online and one in-person and then over the summer I'm going to be in residence in person. That is the kind of flexibility that I think we need to be able to adapt to. We are starting to build the infrastructure to be able to do that.
I think as one of the things on the horizon that is it. I would say another issue on the horizon is thinking about what I'm going to call the area of professional doctorates. One of the things that, historically, this University has been incredibly good at is research degrees. Terminal research degrees, the PhD and any number of different subject areas where I think we can really lean into in online again I don't exactly know if it is a year, three years, what that horizon is, but professional doctorates. So instead of a dissertation that I am writing, it is some kind of a project that impacts the company that I lead or the school that I lead. There is some kind of professional focus building off the professional master programs that we have done and sort of going into that terminal degree level. I think those are two areas that hold immense promise, not just for the University, but sort of thinking on how do we cater to the needs of the learner. What are those opportunities? Maybe the last thing that I will throw in there is just continuing to really think about how we have industry partnerships. Not just building a degree program that our faculty think is best in class, but really bringing in those industry professionals and asking them what are the kind of outcomes that you want graduates to immediately be able to do in your company? In your sector, and then make sure we have those close partnerships being able to respond to that.
PRES. HARROZ: We have talked about the Hello Kitty rock stars and the youth 4‑year‑old to 8‑year‑old, which we were without a doubt, best in class.
DR. GREGG GARN: Best in class, no doubt.
PRES. HARROZ: But we also have sons that are both freshmens, freshmen this year. Both of them made it to the second semester by all indications. When you talk, when you are having a conversation with Dylan, and you tell him and you think about with him what his educational future looks like and where online may fit into that. How should students that are doing a traditional degree today, think about online over the next few years and once they graduate?
DR. GREGG GARN: That is a great question. I would -- this is going to be a little bit radical. I would argue that if an in-person student does not graduate with an online experience, we have done them a disservice. I fundamentally believe that --.
PRES. HARROZ: By online you do not mean a Zoom class?
DR. GREGG GARN: I do not mean a Zoom class. I am feeling -- I am not feeling good, I'm going to do this from a distance. A highly structured, well done online class and the reason that I say that is when I think about his learning or Joseph's learning after they graduate from the University of Oklahoma, I can’t imagine that it is all going to be in person. If we are preparing them to be successful in whatever profession they go into, the idea of what excellence looks like and then being able to connect into that so that they can be a good consumer as they are continuing to navigate through the professional educational experiences that they have, I think it is fundamental to the kinds of experiences that they need to have.
PRES. HARROZ: Yeah, and to the extent it is radical, it is the reality. Reality is is that you just look at what those most sought after jobs will be. We do not know what so many of them are. We know that with the advent of AI, right, machine learning, all of these things that the idea of lifelong learning, the idea of continuing to enhance your educational base and knowledge and to expand it is going to be critical for success in the workforce of tomorrow. I think you're right; I think if someone does not have one of these truly highly expert online classes, that they won’t have skills necessary to navigate the rest of their career.
DR. GREGG GARN: Yeah, and it makes them a better consumer. As they are moving forward, they have seen what excellence looks like. They have seen best in class and so as they are looking at different options out there it gives them a sort of leveling or horizon to be able to pick that option.
PRES. HARROZ: Fantastic. I could talk about this for a really long time. I am told we need to keep these to a reasonable length. Let me ask you, is there anything we didn’t covered that you would like to cover about OU Online?
DR. GREGG GARN: No, I think we have hit the high notes. The thing that I would say is one last piece that I am incredibly excited about is the Career Center that we are developing for online students. Really trying to meet the needs so that not only can we give them the advantage of high quality learning when they are in our classes, but to have an advantageous connection to an industry or a company so that when they graduate they are not just one of 50 resumes, their resume is being seen by another OU graduate or it rises to the top because of the networks that we have been able to establish. Really thinking about not just high‑quality while they are in the program, but ensuring those great career outcomes as they navigate out is maybe the last thing that I would like to emphasize.
PRES. HARROZ: Thank you. It is fascinating after your career as a member of the faculty, and then spending seven years as Dean of the College of Education. We talk about we change lives is our purpose and what you're doing and what you have done already and will do in the future around OU Online is impacting so many people that otherwise would not have had the opportunity. I know it is difficult work. It is pioneering work and on behalf of all of those students, thank you. We appreciate you very much.
DR. GREGG GARN: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.
PRES. HARROZ: Thank you for joining us for this episode of conversation with the president. So great to have Dr. Gregg Garn here with us. A true leader and pioneer in online education, impacting the lives of so many. Don't be scared to subscribe. You are binge watching it and binge listening already, so it just makes sense. Look forward to you all joining us next time on Conversations with the President. Thanks a lot.
