[JOE HARROZ] Hi, I’m Joe Harroz. President of the University of Oklahoma. I want to welcome you to our Conversations with the President. This platform gives me the chance to talk to some of the great people who make OU so special. Make sure that you’re subscribed to Conversations with the President, and you’ll be the first to know when new episodes are released. Let’s get started.
Alright, first thing first. Welcome back to Conversations with the President. The last episode, which I know you’ve listened to but want to listen to again, we had Jonny and Brenda Jones – Co-Chairs of the Lead On Campaign. That two-billion-dollar campaign that we started to propel OU to new heights. If you’ve not listened to it, be sure to listen to it. It was a ton of fun to make. Jonny and Brenda are terrific and certainly representative of those that are working to make OU all that it can be. So, we’re very excited about that.
What we have today to me is something that’s exciting. On the last episode, Jonny and Brenda spoke about how the campaign can make a difference. A lot of that was about how the research that takes place at the University of Oklahoma. Changes the lives of the individuals who engage in it, but also changes the state and provides for the world in a way that otherwise wouldn’t happen.
When you think about what we could do next in guests, there was a gift that came to my attention from the Lead On campaign of $3.5 million dollar gift from alumnus Michael Turner. It was to support the Stephenson School of Biomedical Engineering at the Gallogly College of Engineering. That $3.5 million dollar gift is going to research that I wish that I could explain to you myself in a way that would help communicate how important it is to improving lives. I realized that I couldn’t which I realize is no surprise to you listening.
So, I started to think how best to communicate what this $3.5 million dollar gift and the impact it will have. It was through that we thought about bringing our next guest on, the guest for today’s show. His name is Dr. Michael Detamore. He is a huge part of the heartbeat of the University of Oklahoma, and I want you to hear his story and can’t wait for you to hear it.
So right now, let’s welcome Dr. Michael Detamore.
It’s so great to see you and I would love for you to give our listeners just a bit of background on you and what you lead. How long you’ve been here and your background so they can hear how special you are.
[MICHAEL DETAMORE] Sure. I’m originally from Colorado and then had a few stops along the way at the University of Colorado. Got a bachelor’s degree and then a Ph.D. at Rice University in Houston, got my Ph.D. in bioengineering. I spent 12 years at the University of Kansas. I was really excited about building a biomedical engineering program there but then I got a call from Dean Tom Landers and got really excited about the opportunity with the Stephenson School of Biomedical Engineering. So, in 2016, I moved here to OU and we’ve been growing since.
[HARROZ] Yeah, it’s exciting. So last night I was at an alumni event in Tulsa. I got to spend some time with Charly and Peggy Stephenson who are the namesakes of the school, who have done so much for the university. I was telling them that we would be on this show, they sent their regards, they continued to do amazing things.
Can you tell people, when you hear about biomedical engineering, all of us are impressed, but a lot of us don’t ask that fundamental question. What do biomedical engineers do?
[DETAMORE] Absolutely. Biomedical engineering is developing better technology for healthcare.
[HARROZ] Yeah. The school was created, the idea was in 2015 the first class was in 2016.
[DETAMORE] Yeah, so 2016 was when we welcomed the first classes, and the first graduating class was in 2019.
[HARROZ] Yeah. No, it’s incredibly exciting. So, you’re the first and now only director of the school.
[DETAMORE] That’s correct, I was the founding director of the school and we’re still going today.
[HARROZ] How’s it going? What are the students like? What are you seeing in terms of what you’ve hoped to realize with this role?
[DETAMORE] It’s really incredible. The students that we have are very passionate about healthcare. It’s a group of people where the environment is to be inclusive, caring for other people. So that passion for the career path really applies to taking care of each other. I want to say we have the best students on campus, but I’m totally biased. We have a fantastic group of students who’ve gone on to win major national awards: Goldwater Scholarships and Astronaut Scholarships. Done research all over the country and even around the world, we’ve had students' study abroad. It’s a tremendous group of folks.
[HARROZ] That’s exciting for a school as young as it is, to have that number of accolades to me speaks highly of the quality of the students and the quality of the program that you’ve developed.
You’re known across the university and certainly not just on the Norman campus but across the university as one of the great collaborators. Tell me how you approach being at a comprehensive research university and running this school.
[DETAMORE] I think you just hit the nail on the head, it’s the collaboration that’s the heart of success. So, you bring a clinician, a surgeon with the biomedical engineer. Then you get a brainstorm, it’s like musicians writing a song together. You’re able to riff of each other and find out what each other’s capabilities are. But those are only possible by getting these different people in the same room together. So, the several colleges at the health science center have been visiting with all of them. The collaboration that we have at the Stephenson School spans all of the health science center. Of course, across the Norman campus with the Price College of Business. So, we work well with just about everybody.
[HARROZ] Yeah. So obviously, listeners can already hear just from how you approach things you're a great collaborator. But can you explain Price College of Business, tell me how that works.
[DETAMORE} I love talking about the Price College of Business. Some of my favorite faculty to work with on campus are the faculty and entrepreneurship. People who are willing to fail, willing to take a chance and try new things. We’ve worked together on trying to develop the entrepreneurial ecosystem so teams on campus like the Innovation Hub and Tom Wavering and their leadership there. Out of our advisory board, a Price College alum has led a new group to help with investments to provide funding for start-up companies to come out of the university. The business folks understand the business plan and how to succeed on the entrepreneurial side than we do, but we understand the technology and that’s another example of two different types of musicians coming together.
[HARROZ] I love the story. Tell me the kinds of students that you think should be interested in your program.
[DETAMORE] That’s a great question. I love talking to high school seniors and even younger, fourth graders or when they’re at that stage about what they want to do. Everybody understands what a doctor does, or a physician does, but a lot of folks don’t understand about what are the limitations those physicians have and taking care of people? Or when you go in and the machines hook you up to, or the app on the phone or how it works to support healthcare. Well, you need biomedical engineers to develop those technologies. So, for people to be hands on with the work they’re doing. Building protypes of new technologies and new devices and who want to help healthcare, math, science, healthcare, people who are interested in those things naturally gravitate towards biomedical engineering.
[HARROZ] Yeah, it’s exciting. We talked about the collaboration that takes place outside the college, but being the newest school in the Gallogly College of Engineering, can you talk about how biomedical engineering students interact with the other disciplines of engineering?
[DETAMORE] Absolutely, I’d say we communicate with every other school and discipline within the Gallogly College of Engineering. So, the Gallogly College of Engineering is very strong in, data science, medical science, amino engineering and building up some manufacturing. So, that really requires collaborations within the chemical and mechanical engineering sciences. So, our students work with faculty as well in all of these examples.
[HARROZ] Creating a full symphony?
[DETAMORE] Yes! And our symphony joins with another symphony from Price College and from the Health Science Center and more.
[HARROZ] And of course, lots of students are looking at where they’re going to spend their time academically. The job prospects for students that are in biomedical engineering are infinite.
[DETAMORE] Right. I think the idea that biomedical research doesn’t have a place in the workforce is an outdated notion. I think people thought that in the 1900’s or something, but now we’ve reached a place where the talents of biomedical engineers are becoming increasingly clearer. We understand a lot of the transport that the chemical engineers do. We understand the mechanics of mechanical engineers do. They understand those parts better than the biomedical engineers so we can work with them, but we also understand the physiology and the cell engineering and working with tissues and understanding how health care challenges such as working with regulatory agents like the FDA and being successful at intellectual property in health care economics. Are you going to be able to get insurance to pay for this type of technology? So, our students bring all of these things to the table that brings a unique contribution to the workforce and that’s something that we’re really interested in in the state of Oklahoma.
[HARROZ] So let’s talk about your research agenda. It’s remarkable. Well over 100 publications and more than a dozen patents. Your passion is regenerative tissue and cartilage. Can you explain to us the research agenda that you have?
[DETAMORE] Sure. The goal with regenerative medicine is to regenerate tissues that otherwise cannot regenerate on their own. And instead of focusing on one application, my focus has been on problem solving. So, talking with the neurosurgeon and seeing what their problems are with spinal or traumatic brain injuries. Or with the orthopedic surgeon and understanding the problems with cartilage injury. Or troubles with trichotomous, I brought some props and examples here.
[HARROZ] Can you employ the props.
[DETAMORE] Absolutely. So, to give one example, we have a grant from the NIH right now on traumatic brain injury. The problem with those is the brain swells and it can become a life-threatening problem. A surgeon can open part of the skull to allow the brain to swell. But there’s a second surgery required to replace part of the skull, whether it’s a metal plate or 3-D printed. There has to be a second surgery.
[HARROZ] So whenever there’s a traumatic brain injury the surgeon cuts out part of the skull and that creates a space necessary to allow the brain swelling to go somewhere.
[DETAMORE] The debate in the field right now is how much time between surgery number one and two? And we think that’s asking the wrong question and perhaps you don’t need a second surgery at all. So, the technology we’ve developed is a paste-like material with the consistency of peanut butter or tooth paste that can be spread into place in that defect. And then a light would be shined on that material, so it now becomes flexible like jello. It’s not rigid but it can allow the brain to swell, and the goal would be to allow that material to turn into bone so there’s no need for a second surgery.
This is a smaller version, not to scale.
[HARROZ] I was making sure it wasn’t a direct insult to me, that’s not my brain.
[DETAMORE] I was going to say that it was an insult to me, but anyways, I was going to say this is not necessarily the kind of defect that a surgeon would develop, but for illustrated purposes you can see there's a gap here then you could put a paste-like material on top. That can really allow the brain to swell and the patient to heal. Hopefully avoid some of the psychological deficits that occur between that first and second surgery, which is something we’re trying to understand. It’s a hypothesis right now. We may also have an opportunity to remotely regenerate and provide local drug delivery to help with the psychological and neurological effects. Wish us luck, we will see how it goes.
[HARROZ] Wish all of us luck. This is the exciting component that we don’t talk well enough about. We don’t articulate well enough. The impact of the research that’s taking place on your research agenda. Real world impacts on Oklahomans, the country and the world. If this hypothesis is proven to be true or even if it isn’t proven to be true, it has an impact. This distinction between basic and translational science and research, can you explain that?
[DETAMORE] I’m glad you asked that question, because I can tell you work with both the Health Science Center and the Norman campus, because that’s the right question. The translational research is bridging the work from the basic science and understanding the material science and the date science and so forth, but also understanding the clinical problem and the business challenges and where the industry need is or the market pull is. Developing it. The technology people are going to need. For example, with the patients in Oklahoma, the latest issue of Sooner Magazine highlighted one of our faculty Wei Chen in an immune therapy that he developed that had a very important impact on the life of somebody who was essentially handed a death sentence with the cancer that they had. So if we’re able to develop these immune therapies or paste-like materials for traumatic brain patients or arthritis patients, we’re able to develop technologies that are not just somewhere on a college campus but can make real impact on people living wherever they are. Everyone can appreciate the need for better technology for healthcare.
[HARROZ] Yeah, and that’s one of the beauties of being a flagship, comprehensive research university, that has an academic health system, that is is also comprehensive. This ability to have the basic scientist who do the underlying discovery work. And then to have the translational researchers who can take that underlying research, adapt it to specific uses for patients, for anyone that can use it. To me that is the exciting moment. We talk a lot about how research can help a student learn and understand better in their education. We talk a lot about how research can help spur new industries that can employ more Oklahomans and create economic development. But to me, the real magic relates to individuals who are impacted, through this translational research that can itself save lives in a real way.
[DETAMORE] Absolutely. And if I can provide another example from our College of Dentistry, working with oral surgery, we understand our patients with TMJ or temporomandibular joint problems, and not all TMJ problems are going to require surgery but some more really severe cases, a total joint replacement is needed and in those cases, if you have a young child, maybe 12 years old and he gets a condylar fracture, and that part of the jawbone is not able to regenerate on its own then you put in a metal prosthetic. Which is good and can help but then when they get to be 18 years old or growing, the metal is not going to grow with them. So another one of these props, I’ve got it over here, we have a project where we develop a biomaterial that can regenerate with the patient. Our goal is to be able to regenerate the bone and cartilage so it can grow with the patient. So this is a 3D-printed version of the top of the mandible, the top of the jawbone, but with the top removed. For example, there’s an accident, a condylar fracture, we cut that top part off and then we print a prosthesis that’s made of a biodegradable material that can then fit like a hand in a glove. This is also what we’re doing with a metallic prosthesis. But now with the biomaterial, the hope is that we can help the patient again have only one surgery.
[HARROZ] That makes complete sense. Is this in the research phase or is in the application phase as well?
[DETAMORE] This is in the research phase. So we got a grant from the Osteo Science Foundation to build up some additional data to provide as the foundation for pursuing larger grants from the NIH. So we’re a little bit earlier stage on that one but we’ve got a big dream and goal for that.
[HARROZ] That’s exciting. All this talk about materials, I think it’s important to get to some material for other issues. One of them is, you’re not just a great researcher and innovator in education, but you actually have outside interests. Among those elemental issues, you have some background with Metallica.
[DETAMORE] Oh yes, I’m a life-long, die-hard Metallica fan, I confess.
[HARROZ] That’s one of my best transitions by the way, to go to from element to just metal itself. So, the story is that you’ve played drums with Metallica. That can’t be real, what’s the real story?
[DETAMORE] Well, you’re right, it’s not real because I don’t know how to play drums, but I did get invited to sit at the drum kit in Des Moines, Iowa, in 2008. The drummer came over to the side of the stage.
[HARROZ] Well, he’s not just some drummer.
[DETAMORE] His name is Lars.
[HARROZ] Yes. Okay, fine. I wanted to make sure you’re a true Metallica fan.
[DETAMORE] Mr. Ulrich.
[HARROZ] So he invites you on stage.
[DETAMORE] Yeah, he comes over and he says, ‘You want one more song?’ And I knew there was going to be one more song, so I said, ‘Four more songs!’ And he said, ‘If you want four more songs, then why don’t you come play?’ So he sat me down at the drum kit, and handed me these drum sticks, which I still have today.
[HARROZ] I didn’t know you’d bring them with you.
[DETAMORE] Well, I defiantly wanted to demonstrate that I’m not making this up. I have his signature on the drumsticks too, because I met him again in 2019 to thank him for the opportunity.
[HARROZ] What did you do to get noticed and brought on stage to a Metallica concert or do I want to know that?
[DETAMORE] Well, the short story is I met him before the show and I told him, ‘I’ve seen you all over the world, I’ve seen you at Live Earth, I’ve seen you in London, I have guitar picks from all over the world, but I don’t have any drum sticks. What is the psychology, how do you choose?’ And he said, ‘it’s in the eyes.’ So of course the whole show, I’m making the eyes that I think it will get the attention.
[HARROZ] It looks like it worked.
[DETAMORE] Yeah, so if Mr. Ulrich is watching, I can say thank you, I appreciate the opportunity.
[HARROZ] I didn’t know the full story and now I’m happy that I do.
[DETAMORE] I think it’s important for all of us to have these outlets and to do these other things besides the science so we can keep a good balance in life.
[HARROZ] That’s critical. You bring so much to the school and the program. Tell me about a success story or two with your students. I’ve heard about some of the other accomplishments and awards, but can you give us an example of the impact that the Stephenson School of Biomedical Engineering is having on students?
[DETAMORE] Oh absolutely. Our students have had opportunities to travel the world and to study abroad opportunities. We've had Academic All-American soccer player who did research in Japan and went on to law school. Of course, we’ve also had a very successful student on teams on coaches we’ve had to bring here to this very show. I’m going to mention law school again. I believe you have some interest. One of our alumni just finished from the University of Virginia law school and is in the Washington, D.C. area now. She joined our advisory board, Katy Cramer. We’ve also got students who went on to NSF fellowships and they’re doing Ph.D. programs at the University of Pennsylvania and Vanderbilt and other programs. We’ve kept a number of our students here who’ve went on to continue their education at OU and gone on to medical school or dental school. And also on the industries. These are folks that are contributing in law, and medicine and dentistry, and developing new technologies and Ph.D. programs. A very talented group of alumni. The next generation is following up[ behind them,
[HARROZ] That’s great. I've also heard from Peggy Stephenson that she writes notes to the students.
[DETAMORE] Oh, she did that, yes. With the inaugural graduating class in 2019, I was really touched that Charly and Peggy Stephenson both came to be there to be there in-person with the students. Charly said a few words, Peggy wrote a hand-written note to every single student. She knew where they were going after graduation, what they were planning to do next. It was really touching to see how involved and engaged and how much they cared about the students themselves. Beautiful thing.
[HARROZ] It really is. You talk about the areas of technical biomedical engineering, and to see the human element and to see the OU family coming together, I think it’s a place of real beauty. I love that the college, I mean, within the college, there is this new school that is having such a huge impact, and the reality that it leverages in this symphony of coordination that it leverages everything within the Gallogly College to help these students make a difference in the lives of others. It leverages everything we have the Health Science Center and the Academic Health System. To me, there is a unique beauty that understands all of those areas the workforce needs of our state, the impact of research and what it can do for the state and the nation economically and individual lives. Our collective well-being. Your time as the leader in this role I hope you know what a huge impact you’re having. I see you at so many events and we’ve rarely get a chance to say a few words because we’re both going so quickly, but i hope you know, how much you’re appreciated. The impact you’re having on this university and the lives of so many people.
Before we wrap up, you have more props to your left. What do we need to cover to make sure those are all fully deployed.
[DETAMORE] I don’t think I can cover all of them, I can pick one you want, it doesn’t matter.
[HARROZ] Let’s see, why don’t you pick your favorite of the devices you have there.
[DETAMORE] I would say my nieces and nephews would want me to pick the one that’s most like video games. So this is a prop that came about from our students who made a technology request, as I mentioned earlier, the physicians come to us with requests, and the seniors have to figure out a way to build a prototype to solve the clinical need. So as you’re having residents being trained at the Health Sciences Center, performing better surgery, before they perform on the patient, they can practice a laparoscopic surgery with, this is just a prototype digital surgery board for the surgery off to the side. I don’t want to pull any wires, these are student projects, but they can light things up and you can get that practice doing that, before you’re working with patients. That’s a clinical need to help train the residents at the Health Science Center, that our students at the Norman Campus are helping out with.
[HARROZ] It's remarkable. I mean you’re doing a great job, it has to be exciting to come into every day. You brought your own coffee mug, now tell us about that.
[DETAMORE] Yes, this was designed one of the personnel in my group, this is a gift to you. The translational regenerative medicine laboratory. And you’d expect something with a football that also highlights the Stephenson School. These are our gifts to you.
[HARROZ] And who wouldn’t want a coffee mug that says translational regenerative medicine laboratory.
[DETAMORE] Yes for translational, now you get it!
[HARROZ] Absolutely! I love it. I do want, as I get older, you to work on cartilage, to make my knees and my spine work better.
[DETAMORE] Well we do have two grants from the NIH to specifically help with that. So we’re on our way.
[HARROZ] Just two minutes on that! Tell us about those grants.
[DETAMORE] Sure, those grants are to helping the body regenerate cartilage better. If you can have a medical device or another paste-like material, that can help the cells that are already in your body, recognize the material and then want to differentiate more towards like a cartilage-like cell instead of a fibrous-like cell, which is an inferior cartilage, then you can hopefully regenerate true cartilage. I’ll skip the story due to the time we have available, but the bottom line is that it relies on peptides or fragments of proteins that cells can recognize. That’s the story I’m going to skip over, but if that works, then the cells in your body will recognize the material and be able to create true cartilage. Surgeons know how to work with a paste-like material. It’s translational. We appreciate the support from he NIH to help us do that work here at OU.
[HARROZ] Yeah, and for those who don’t know, the National Institute of Health is the highest level of federal funding research that we can have. Often seen in the health sciences, and then you also talked about the NSF, or National Science Foundation, which we predominantly see on non-medical campuses. The fact that you spoke to both of those, speaks to the cross-pollination that exists in your work.
[DETAMORE] Absolutely. The NSF likes to understand things and the NIH likes to solve problems. So I think we have a connection to both those agency missions.
[HARROZ] Too many times, we just say hello. I hope you know how grateful we are for what you’re doing with our students. Making the Stephenson School of Biomedical Engineering just a few years ago a hope and a dream a reality that is changing the lives of students, the state and the world. We’re extremely grateful. Thank you, so much.
[DETAMORE] Absolutely. And thank you to the Stephenson's for having that vision of the Stephenson Cancer Center and the Stephenson School of Biomedical Engineering. Now we’re just having fun working together. So thanks to them, and thanks to you for the opportunity.
[HARROZ] Yeah, they’re remarkable people. We’re talking about moving, creating Stephenson Cancer Center in Tulsa and all the opportunities that come along with that to save lives. So grateful to them and grateful to you, thank you for joining the show.
[DETAMORE] Thanks. You bet.
[HARROZ] I would once again like to thank our guest Michael Detamore for joining Conversations with the President. Hopefully, it provided insight in the kinds of schools and programs that are growing and blossoming at the university and the impact of the research, both to the students taking it, and the society as a whole. All of us are beneficiaries of biomedical engineering and all of us hope to be beneficiaries in the future. Hopefully you’ve seen the impact and the substance that’s taking place here at the University of Oklahoma, and benefiting from all three campuses, this idea of a comprehensive academic health system. All seven colleges at the Health Science Center and the remarkable campus at the University of Oklahoma Norman Campus. Thankful for him being here, thank you for joining us. And I hope you join us next time for our next Conversation with the President. Thank you.
